033 : Putting the “Human” Back into Human Resources with Jacques Spitzer and Danny Kim
“I’d like to create a culture that we can one day look back on and say that we could write a book about it.” Culture is not only internal. It is also reflected externally through a combination of employer brand and employee experience. The best cultures, of course, are those whose projected image and community engagement are unified and complementary. As today’s guests like to say: Great people create alike.
HR is not simply about policing employee behavior, as many tend to believe. Rather, the professional who truly knows their role understands that they’re meant to support and lift up the community within their organization. People development is about constantly asking others what is getting in the way of them becoming their best selves. After all, the team is only as happy as its least happy member. Today’s conversation provides a strong case for putting the “human” back into human resources by establishing trust, humility, and consistency as the cornerstones of thriving cultures.
Jacques Spitzer, Danny Kim, and Steve Chaparro discuss the advantages of working alone versus together, common challenges in developing a healthy company culture, and Raindrop’s plan for day one of the new normal.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- Common misconceptions around the HR department
- Growing as a person and as a professional by opening their whole self up to change
- How culture is reflected externally through employer brand and employee experience
- Common cultural challenges, especially amid COVID-19
- Creating trust in a virtual environment
- Personal and organizational cultural changes to be made moving into the new normal
Resources Mentioned in this episode:
About the Guest:
Jacques Spitzer is a storyteller at heart. He is the founder and CEO at the branding and advertising firm Raindrop. Jacques’s multifaceted career includes being an author (People Love Turkey Sandwiches, 2018), highly sought-after speaker, documentarian, and 2x Emmy® award-winning creative director whose work has been featured on publications such as Forbes and Entrepreneur Magazine.
He graduated with a Bachelor of Arts in Communications at UC San Diego.
Danny Kim, PhD is the Director of People and Culture at Raindrop and a faculty member at the Center for Creative Leadership. He has served as a coach, consultant, workshop facilitator, and keynote speaker on communication for various companies since 2012.
He graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Biology/Biological Sciences at the California Polytechnic State University, a Master of Divinity in Transformational Leadership at the Bethel Seminary in San Diego, and a Doctor of Philosophy in Industrial and Organizational Psychology at Grand Canyon University.
Full Transcript: Powered by Otter.ai
Announcer
Welcome to the Culture Design Show where we feature conversations with leaders who are passionate about culture and design. Now, let’s get started with the show.
Steve Chaparro
This podcast is brought to you by Culture Design Studio. This is where I help creative organizations transform their cultures, from being controlling to being collaborative.
Now, here are some of the things that I’ve learned. Your creative talent demands a co-creative culture in order to produce their best work. But there’s a problem. Now let’s see if you can recognize some of these signs.
There’s no framework to move your culture forward. You have high turnover and low morale. There’s increasing toxicity across all levels. There’s team engagement and satisfaction that are on the decline. There’s a misalignment between the employer brand and the employee experience. And there’s poor communication about expectations and values.
So if you want to learn more about how I provide facilitation and coaching for your creative team, reach out to me at CultureDesignStudio.com .
My guests today are Jacques Spitzer and Danny Kim of Raindrop, a branding and advertising agency out of San Diego, California. Jacques serves as the CEO of the agency, and Danny is the Director of People and Culture. Guys, welcome to the culture Design Show.
Danny Kim
Hey, thanks for having us.
Jacques Spitzer
Very excited to be with you, Steve.
Steve Chaparro
Well, we’ve seemed to have gotten off to a good start, just in our previous calls, calls. I think you guys have such a great camaraderie between the both of you. And I think that’s probably exemplified of, of the firm that you guys have in the culture at Raindrop.
Jacques, I want to ask you first. You are the founder of Raindrop I’d love to hear from you. What led you to start Raindrop?
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah, when I was 24 years old, I was a little less than two years out of college, I had gotten a job at NBC. It was during the recession. And you know, I had a series of, I guess, opportunities where I was being asked to, you know, can I film a small commercial on the side? Can I help, you know, build a small WordPress website. And so I never had any sort of big vision.
I remember one of my mentors. family friend of mine, he had a quarter of a billion-dollar company. And he sat down with me and he was like, so what do you want to name this thing? And do you ever want to be bigger than you? And I was like, I don’t know. I mean, I’m just trying to make enough money to pay my rent right now.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
And so, you know, I was 24 years old, I was super naive. And I think that that has helped my journey because I don’t have I didn’t have any bad habits, or agency life going into this. But I also think, you know, I’ve been very fortunate to surround myself with literally the best people that I’ve been able to find. And that might be my only gift truly is finding and keeping the best people and Danny Kim, on this podcast today is one of those people soon to be Dr. Kim.
Steve Chaparro
Ph.D. candidate on the when you getting that degree,
Danny Kim
Pretty soon here pretty soon. So my doctorate is in industrial-organizational psychology. So getting there.
Steve Chaparro
That’s awesome.
Jacques Spitzer
So all I have to say is if you’re not impressed with what Danny has to say today, I don’t know who you are.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah. What were some of the things that motive? I mean, obviously, you started off with maybe not any grand dreams or visions about what it could be? What were some of the things that motivated you over the years in building this firm?
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah, so originally, there was two driving factors. One was, I just love creative problem-solving. Like I don’t, I’ve never viewed myself as, like all these terms that came later like creative director and creative.
I’m like, I just was looking at people businesses and I’ve come to find that things that are very obvious to me, you know, are things and a lot of times people are just have other skill sets other you know, other abilities,
Or now that we’re you know, kind of like doing, you know, bigger level work then it’s more about collaborating with people that also have a vision to create a vision even bigger for what where they could head but when it was you know, I kind of look at you mentioned architecture architects that you talk to on this.
On this podcast I often think like, when I see the work of other professionals, I’m sure you have this feeling to you’re like how do you see that and like, how could you ever dream up a building like that and I can’t even imagine and I think people have that level especially with our like our anchor video work which is our videos that have you know, really taken off, you know, quarter billion views in the last year.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
When people see those videos, they’re like, I can’t believe you guys make those. And I’m like, yeah, that’s how I feel when I watch Game of Thrones and I see the CGI, like, how do people do this?
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
And so anyway, it’s just been a fun journey of applying, learning and applying my own skills and strengths, but then also finding people that were just so much stronger than I could ever be in any area. And we got to the point where we knew we needed someone like Danny, but we, honestly in a million years, didn’t think Danny would say yes. And I, we called him. I called him and I’m like, I’m coming for you, Danny. And now I hope he never goes.
Steve Chaparro
Well, I think that’s a powerful statement, though. I mean, if a leader, a CEO, a founder, has the gift of being able to attract and retain great talent. That’s that that’s, I would say that that’s probably not as common as we might think, especially in the creative world. Because there are a lot of wars out there in terms of attracting great talent, but not on the other side. We’re all about retaining them.
So Danny, for you, I’d love to hear a little bit about your background, and also what attracted you to come to Raindrop. What was it about?
Danny Kim
Awesome. Well, my path is less direct than Jacques’. It took a long time to get to this place. To be honest, I went from, you know, pre-med to being a communicator, working in the nonprofit space, then eventually, working at a university and then doing external consulting, when I started my Ph.D. program, and the thing that has been a through-line has been the fascination of what makes people tick. What motivates them and drives them what internally motivates them to be the best selves.
And so for me, I got to really play in the marketplace or in the corporate world, through my last consulting gig, and I just love the ability to impact people through meaningful experiences. And, you know, during my stint at my consulting firm, I love what I did. But the reality the truth of the matter is, I didn’t really love sales. I didn’t love doing development. I didn’t I love doing the work. I didn’t love going to hunt for the word.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Danny Kim
So cuz we were a small, firm. And so when Jacques called me out of the blue and said, Hey, Danny Kim, Director of People and Culture, like the sound of that, I, I was kind of stopped in my tracks, because I was like, what, like, what this is mean, I’m interested, I’m intrigued, and I think I texted you back Jacques.
I was like, I’m not looking. But I’m intrigued. Like, I’m open, you know, like, and I think that just hit it off. And I think that the primary driver for me, saying yes, to Raindrop was one I love the leadership there. I know Adam and Jacques pretty well. And for me, it was about doing work together, it wasn’t just about like, making fun of a bunch of money, and then calling a good, you know, like, it was about creating a culture and a space where we could actually trust one another and do good work together.
And then to the fact that they are an agency in San Diego that’s looking to invest in this role, saying we want to key into the culture that we have, and continue to develop and grow, I feel like that was to me was a huge, you know, kind of green light for me.
And then finally, being able to know I can come into an office, and I can call somebody anytime and know that they I’m doing my job by reaching out to them, you know, and I don’t go home for them to say, Hey, will you work with me? Yeah, you know, and I think that’s been an incredible journey. And, and it’s so fun. I mean, I’ve learned a ton just even in my short time at Raindrop. And I know that there’s so much more to learn. But it is has been a powerful moment for me to be in a place where I can actually impact lives, hopefully make it make them more efficient, make them more productive, but at the same time, make them have the kind of conversations that are saying are going to keep people around saying I love Raindrop and what it has to offer for me.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah, speaking of that title, so Director of People and Culture, you know, why isn’t it called Director of HR? Like, why Director of People and Culture? Like I mean, I have my, my reasons why he would go there, but why does that make a difference?
Danny Kim
So a couple things I told Adam, when he I directly report to Adam and when we were on the kind of a phone interview, initial phone interview, I said, “Listen, I’m not gonna manage your payroll man.”
Like, that’s just not me. Like, do not trust me with like managing a budget or like the fine print in contracts, like, Operations is just not my jam. Like, that’s not what gets me up in the morning. Now, if you talk about doing training and development, learning and development, coaching, if you talk about, you know, strategy and change management and communication that wakes me up in the morning, but if you were to put me in back office.
HR can be relegated to some Operations on Logistics, which is fine. And some people love that they get that gets up in the morning. But for me, I wasn’t super excited about that I didn’t want to be a paper pusher. My job is to really think about where are we heading into the future? You know, one of the things that Jacques and I recently have been exploring an assertive pilot is a DE&I, committee, you know, diversity, equity inclusion, and that’s like, that’s what gets me up in the morning thinking about how can we change our future together, you know, by including something like this.
So, you know, HR, I love HR, but I’m not a, I’m not a Compliance/Operations kind of person, I’m really thinking about the big holistic picture of where we’re going as an agency with our people.
Steve Chaparro
And think that’s the trend that we’re seeing as well. And many firms in not just creative firms, but they’re, they’re making this shift. I just talked with Mark Levy, who was the former Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, and he was part of that shift leading that shift from HR, either to Employee Experience or to People and Culture,
Or that that reference to People and Culture as being much more common. And they’re leaving sort of what some might call baggage of what HR used to mean. And it’s more of the, you know, the compliance, the payroll, the legal side of things. But this is definitely a much more holistic.
Was that Jacques, was that the frame of mind that you guys are going through? Like, I don’t know, if that was, if you realize how intentional that that title was of direct Director, People and Culture? Or was it just like,
Jacques Spitzer
Well, it’s funny, you should ask that. Because, um, I would say that, you know, when we, so is Adam, Carrie and myself, and Carrie’s a part of our, she’s our chief PR social officer. And she comes with over two decades of amazing experience. And when we were talking about it, it was it was one of our most intentional titles, and moments. And usually, like, now it makes you look really smart. But like, at the time, it was just like, we just knew that, you know, we knew that in order to do this, right? We wanted someone who would be not reacting.
So when I hear HR, a lot of times I hear about I think about maintaining and reacting, we want someone leading this, because, you know, at this point, it’s like, it’s grown to a place where Adam, Carrie, and I have one eye, one eye externally, and when I internally, We are serving clients, and we’re serving our team, you know, we wanted to bring someone on whose sole job it was to look inward, like does not ever talk to a client is 100%, looking at our team, helping to grow them, helping to provide, you know, for their past for their learnings around their strengths.
And I think, you know, bottom line is, is once we create that role, that’s when you know, the roll was created. And that’s when actually Adam was like, What do you think about Danny? And I was like, oh, like, honestly, what went through my head, which is the same thought that went through my head when I thought about asking my now wife that was like, there’s no way that that’s gonna actually work. But like, you got to ask, and so asked, and, and here we are on the spot.
Steve Chaparro
Well, it’s, it’s, you know, you know, for all of us that we’ve been in sales or business development, one form or fashion, it’s that mantra of you just never know, right? Sometimes you just got to shoot for it in. And thank God it actually worked out. Right.
Jacques Spitzer
And it’s funny.
Danny Kim
Oh, go ahead Jacques,
Jacques Spitzer
I just wanna I just wanted to add to that, though, that, you know, I think one of the things that Adam, Adam and I said to each other, can’t take credit for it was Adam. One of the things he said was, he’s like, you know, we’re at this point where we’re nine-headed, we’re now we’re 10 years into this journey.
And you know, I’m only 34 years old Adams 32. Actually, no, he’s 33. Now, sorry. Anyway, bottom line is like we’re young, hopefully, hopefully, God willing, we have a future ahead of us. And so once we have grown it, you know, we were looking to do nine or ten million dollars. We’re like, what’s the future look like here?
Because, you know, bigger, continue to get bigger isn’t necessarily success. We don’t necessarily need to make more money. Like, what are we wanting to do here? And Adam was like, I’d like to create a culture that we could one day look back and say we could write a book about like, that’s strong.
Steve Chaparro
That’s awesome.
Jacques Spitzer
And that’s right now we’re in the pandemic chapter of that book. But that’s, that was the heart of bringing Danny on is like, we were like, we can’t, there’s no way we can accomplish that, you know, by ourselves. And, obviously, now that we’re going through a pandemic and in things are crazier than ever, culturally, you know, it makes us feel it’s nice to have someone who’s still internally looking at everyone, because it’s a weird time to be in business.
So I didn’t need to hit you, Bob earlier, Danny, I just want to say, you know, that was a, that was really the long term, like the 20-year vision of this was, you know, how can we, how can we create something that is super unique? And we, Danny and I just had the really the pleasure of talking to Gary Ridge from WD-40.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah,
Jacques Spitzer
He had created a company like that. And it was a little bit like Ghost of Christmas Future. For me. I was like, I want what you have like that’s amazing? So Danny, sorry, I didn’t mean to.
Danny Kim
No, it was great. No, I think I think you’re absolutely right, Jacques, we’re definitely in the middle of we’re in the hero’s journey. And we’re at that dip, you know, we’re getting slayed left and right. And we’re still coming through. So watch out world,
But I was just gonna save it to your question about kind of why not HR, you know, and it’s funny Jacques, I don’t think I’ve told you this story, we were at a, I went to a video shoot for one of our anchor videos. And one of the, you know, actor actresses was there. And, you know, one of our producers introduced me as our, you know, like HR People and Culture, and she kind of was, you know, fumbled over my time, I was still new.
And then the lead the entire time kept on giving me a hard time saying like, Oh, I can’t say that HR’s here. I think that’s like, literally the conception like that, that our perception of what people think about HR, it’s like, oh, like, don’t, don’t say anything bad, don’t do anything bad. Like, I’m here like to like, knock you down. Versus my, I mean, I hope my team feels our team feels that my role hundred percent is to support and lift them up, you know, and is to say, what’s getting in the way of you being your best self?
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Danny Kim
And how do we create those powerful moments together? So? Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
Yeah, I love that idea. Because I think sometimes we if we are in that mind frame of, Oh, we can’t say that, because HR is here.
Danny Kim
Yeah.
Steve Chaparro
We tend to compartmentalize who we are and what we bring ourselves to the workplace. But if we think of it as People and Culture, where we can bring our whole selves, yes. And that requires a lot to bring our whole selves requires vulnerability. It requires humility, it also requires compassion when someone brings, you know, sometimes the dark side, if you will, or just the weak sides of ourselves in we have a moment.
Well, can we do we have the compassion to allow people to have their moments within reason? And not, you know, at because we’re all we’re all human? And I think sometimes we don’t allow ourselves to bring our whole selves or, and or we don’t allow ourselves to be to have to add have and received compassion, when we do have those moments, because I think that’s part of being human. And I’d love to, you know, if it was human resources in the past, well, let’s be more human, in the workplace.
Danny Kim
Exactly. Put the human back in human resources.
Steve Chaparro
Exactly. Well, well, I’d love to hear. So I think I’m getting a really good sense of what that partner you know, at the partner level, what is that relationship with people and culture?
And it’s very been that’s been an interesting conversation with other folks as well, like I, you know, talking with I mentioned earlier, off the call my conversation with Mark Levy, who was the former Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb. And he mentioned that as they were beginning to formulate what Airbnb was this idea of, you know, where you can belong anywhere or anywhere seems to be like home, but also that applied to the workplace.
And as they were really trying to develop what that client or customer experience looks like, because everybody knows that they’re very obsessed about that Customer Experience. But then they said, Okay, well, we believe that the employee experience, we want to be just as obsessed about that, but it’s really a different facet of the same thing. They’re not inseparable, they work together. So it’s interesting to see how in some cases where there is a strong passion for People and Culture.
And a culture for me, I think it actually is not just internal, it’s actually how is that reflected externally? What do you think that relationship is between, you know, external-facing culture and internal focus? I mean, part of it is brand, right brand is part of that. What are some thoughts about? Let me put it this way, employer brand, and employee experience.
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah.
Steve Chaparro
What do you think are some synergies there?
Jacques Spitzer
Why it’s interesting, we, we have a big quote on our wall that says, great people create alike, and I think that, you know, well, I think to take a full step back to like, where this started and like, at least my mindset, and then how the team has like, taken that and really take it to a whole nother level is, you know, I started the business, not even necessarily, a lot of time when you hear the entrepreneurs, it’s like, oh, I couldn’t work for anyone else. Like, I could very easily have someone else do a great job. I’m not the kind of person that’s like, oh, I needed to own a company and be like, you know, when I hear people say that, I’m like, wow, I don’t I get that. But I don’t resonate with that.
For me, it was like, I, I started this, and then I just didn’t want to be lonely because it’s very lonely. And then it was like, I never had a vision more than like four or five people, because I never seen a marketing company bigger than that in my personal life, you know, up until my mid-20s. And so, for me, as we’ve grown, it’s it’s always been about the name Raindrop itself comes from a relational quote.
It’s a CS Lewis quote, and it’s just about, you know, when you if you’re lucky, you have a friendship in your life, where it’s as easy as seeing two raindrops come together and window sill. So if you’ve ever been sitting at your window, and it’s raining, and you watch them all kind of like, come together. And, and I will say, though, at this moment in time, my largest success in business, and I’m just speaking personally, is when I hear from a client, wow, everyone, I come into contact with your group. They’re just so nice. So genuine. It’s like I get that comment once a week.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah,
Jacques Spitzer
It shines through and then it’s internal to, like, we don’t really have HR I, when we have more people like yes, like personnel, things pop up. But for the number of people we have, it’s absolutely insane. We’re so intentional with our hiring. Because we know that if we find the right fit for the role, not only in skill set, but in personality, with our culture, that we’re going to develop a team that respects one another, that is collaborative that’s open to one another and isn’t just out for themselves and trying to advance themselves and have an ego like, I mean, we really have a super special crafted team.
And so I’ve always looked at it as I’m selfishly, like, we’ve made all these, these decisions, selfishly, to have the best internal team possible to work together well, but then it results,
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
Fantastic external experience. And so I think that I look at it, like if you’re a steam engineer throwing coal in like, if you throw golden, it’s even better for that, that base elements like you we start with people who are just not only a player’s skill set wise, but attitude-wise, it makes all the difference. And it’ll save you a lot of time and headache two is
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Jacques Spitzer
When it comes to you know, because you’re only as happy as your least happy person.
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
Yeah,
Danny Kim
For sure.
Steve Chaparro
I would imagine that when you hear things like that from people about, you know, encountering different people, different rain droppers, that it might cause a raindrop to fall from your eye.
Jacques Spitzer
You know, it never gets old?
Danny Kim
You know, Steve, it’s an interesting question, because so one, I think a cool thing that we get to do is that Jacques sits in on every single interview, we create space for that, I think that’s a very important piece. So he’ll meet every single person that we you know, later stages of their employee, or recruitment, cycle life cycle. But I think one thing that stands out and I, I think, is that every single person we talked to, they say, wow, I loved who Raindrop who I thought Raindrop to be via their website, our website, you know, but when I get here, it’s like really true.
Like, it’s what I experience, you know, what I thought it could be or my fantasies of what Raindrop is. And when I get there, it’s like, I experienced that. And I it, it’s actually what I want it to be. And so, I mean, we just onboard a new person last week, and she basically was like, Yeah, I feel exactly what I thought this would be. And this is what I wanted, you know, and, and I think that’s a very important piece that I hold on to that I have seen, she’s a perfect person for it to be on in our culture because she gave an experience that
Steve Chaparro
I think that’s many times where I have seen and observe the misalignment where it’s the website slash employer brand is saying one thing, this is what it’s going to look like. And sometimes the CEOs are the biggest evangelists for what that looks like and what they’re telling people, but it is a misalignment with their actual experience. They come in and they see that, yeah, the offices are fancy, you know, they got nice titles and in everything slick, but you know, it’s toxic.
That’s a misalignment that, I wonder if you know, the question I’ve been having even about creative organizations, right here in the midst of COVID. Where it’s, it’s like I use the reference and it’s like a snowglobe where all the things that have settled all the sort of toxic things that have settled to the floor. That snowglobe because you’ve just allowed things to slide COVID has kind of like, you know, shaking things up, and all these things are much more visible. And, you know it’s a
Jacques Spitzer
That’s terrifying.
Steve Chaparro
But I mean, I use that because my, my pastor who gave us pastoral counseling, you know, he used that reference when we were about to get into marriage, and he says, all the things that you’ve grown up with, and that you’ve tolerated, and maybe just have not even observed that that’s part of who you are. We want to unsettle all of that so that you go into it, one addressing some of this, but to let you know, your partner knows that this is kind of like what they’re getting. And so that you can it was this idea of let’s be real so that we can deal with what’s going on.
So I wonder if what are some challenges that you have observed maybe within you know, Raindrop, but also in your conversations with other leaders at creative agencies? What are some common cultural challenges that you have observed each of you?
Jacques Spitzer
Great question.
Danny Kim
Yeah, that’s a good question.
Jacques Spitzer
I, you know, I don’t have let me, let me think about that. Yeah. Danny?
Danny Kim
Yeah, sure. No, well, let me uh, well, I mean, given our current circumstances, I’ll speak to that specifically, because that’s kind of top of mind for us. You know, when we, at the start of COVID, our business got hit really hard.
And so we had to make significant changes, we had first talked about doing wage reductions than doing one day a week furloughs and then a significant portion of our team got furloughed temporarily.
And whenever that happens, there’s always going to be furlough PTSD, you know, what I mean, because it’s not anyone’s fault. It’s just the reality, because then it’s like, then we all go under, you know, it’s like, it’s like, we have to be able to keep the lights on to a certain extent.
So we prioritize based on kind of who our clients were at the time. And if we could deliver, you know, so we kept the people that were specifically moving towards delivery, you know, and I think I really respect Jacques and Adam, because they basically were like, we’re willing not to take any salary, we just want to be able to pay our bills and have a place to, you know, and I think that was super honorable.
And myself, I was included in that for a low season, you know, and so, I kind of came went with the team, you know, and it was an incredibly sad moment, but also recognizing, hoping that it wasn’t forever, but also recognizing this is a pivotal moment for our agency, because, you know, it, things will never be the same. And we’re gonna need to survive through this, as Get Rich said, Jacques, and I, you know, we had to survive, and now we’re in that reset button,
You know, we’re in that reset stage, where we have to go, what’s our new culture, like, and who are the people that are going to remain with us, other people have gotten jobs already at agencies and, and that’s just what’s gonna happen, you know, but we, I think, so from a challenge culturally, and this is true, pre COVID, post-COVID. This is true, remote work or in person, trust is a really big factor.
If your people are if people trust one another, both internally and their teams, if they trust leadership, a lot of the questions are resolved by themselves, obviously, we have to do a good job, to communicate what we know, to be efficient with our communication, you know, and to be reaching out constantly asking for feedback. But when there’s a high level of trust, you can go very, very far. But if there are, folks, that kind of trust is not a big thing, it’s hard to kind of regain that trust.
Steve Chaparro
I think that’s one of the things that I’ve seen in talking with other agency owners or, you know, you know, leaders that architecture firms or whatever any, any type of creative firm, if, and I think definitely if trust exists, it rises to the top and it’s, it’s, it’s front and center, that the trust is a foundation for that particular culture. However, on the other side, if there was a lack of trust that is seriously blatantly revealed as well, and you didn’t have a choice.
Jacques Spitzer
That’s such a good, good way to phrase it. I mean, that’s, I’m trying to think even how to wrap my mind around even answering this it I feel like, the one thing I’m super grateful for in this moment, is that we had built before all this happen, we have built a high level of trust with our team members.
And I do believe that to be true. And I think that we’ve seen that because what I couldn’t I don’t know the exact numbers, I think we ended up having to lay off about 28 of our 55 people and but we’ve been able to rehire like 17/18 of those people already. So it’s just been whiplash, you know, and we didn’t qualify for PPP loan for a variety of reasons.
And so, it has been so in a sense, it’s sort of like I don’t know that we had a bunch of sentiment sitting at the bottom of our snowglobe. I think now I feel like we have the potential to develop sentiment drop into the snowglobe, especially with the fact that we aren’t physically in person anymore. So you add another factor of like rebuilding trust in a virtual environment.
And that’s really what we’re looking to do. I think, you know, as I’ll just speak for myself as like, having been a part of like, leading through this general storm, is one of the things that, in our conversation with Gary Ridge, I really appreciate it was said, consistency is a huge part of culture.
And, and right now, I recognize that, you know, we had a plan, we had a full plan for taking up to a 50% hit to our business, which I thought was like, pretty good. I was like, 50%. Like, that’s, that’s a pretty major hit.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
Especially when you consider like a recession, I’m like, okay, we should see some of this coming, to an extent. And overnight, we were scrambling for what happened, like, we were looking at potentially 75/80 percent of the business now, especially since we had so many restaurant clients. So, so many nonprofit clients.
And so decisions that I thought we would have the least weeks, if not, you know, days to make, we had hours, all of a sudden, a lot of like, oh boy like, this is happening really fast. And so we didn’t even really have a huge opportunity at the time to even communicate with some of our senior leadership. It was having that it was hard enough to get, having Carrie on the phone for frequent enough.
Because our clients are going through chaos, too. So they’re like, Oh, my gosh, like, we’re having to shut down this restaurant, that restaurant, I think someone has COVID at a restaurant, like, you know, just pure chaos. And so as I’m looking at it, now I am. I’m super grateful for one that we were our client base was so diversified going through this because our direct to consumer clients are hitting all sorts of record sales, like anyone who sells stuff through the internet right now, for the most part is doing really well.
And so we saw, you know, a dramatic increase in number of new clients in the direct consumer space. Yeah. And right now part of our team is waiting for the return of things like the San Diego Symphony, you know, who can perform concerts right now. And all of these restaurant clients that we have and are great, you know, they’ll return back. It’s much like seeing a rosebush. That’s been pruned. It’s like, it looks like twigs now, like roses will bloom again.
And so, you know, I think that that’s, you know, it’s like, one of my learning lessons through this has been, what does communication over communication look like?
Steve Chaparro
Yeah.
Jacques Spitzer
And I think people are willing to forgive people are willing to, like, provide an element of grace, as long as they understand the context behind why decisions are being made.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah,
Jacques Spitzer
And I can’t say that for everyone. But I would say that the people that matter, most the people that you want on your team will understand with context, like, Okay, this wasn’t personal. This had nothing to do with how much you appreciate me. My work here, like this is literally like this is because I think that’s the downside of the potential downsides. Like, oh, someone’s like, Oh, they don’t value me.
It’s like, Yeah, no, like, that’s not the case. Like, I would gladly give up every cent of I mean, in all seriousness, I gladly give up every cent of my salary, and what I make for a time being that makes sure that we kept our team fully together. But luckily, things are at this point growing back and I’m, we’re preparing ourselves for the potential of the another storm in the in the fall, knows, but the good news is our direct to consumer clients are doing really well. And even if we have another storm, honestly, it might only benefit them more, unfortunately.
So, that’s a long way of saying I think the work to ensure that the trust is high is be is it’s all right now. And it’s something that Danny and Carrie and Adam and the rest of our senior team is talking about weekly. I mean, it is the most important thing in our world right now.
Danny Kim
And it and it happens in so many it’s it’s so multifaceted, right? Trust is built multiple, it’s not like one email or something that’s going to solve it all. It’s like, one on one conversations in group conversations. It’s a conversation with Jacques. It’s a conversation with me. There’s a saying like bridging the gap between our talk and our do.
You know, so when we say we’re going to do X like we actually do it, you know, and actually follow through with it. I think there’s so much there that’s emerging, and it’s hard, it’s complex, and we’re also we hope that our agency gives us grace, you know, because we’re, we’re just trying to figure it out this as much as everybody else. And I think it’s it’s a beautiful thing. It’s a great learning. But I’m hoping that that the season makes us better for it not worse. You know, I really believe that, that. Yeah, so.
Steve Chaparro
You use that word beautiful, beautiful season. And sometimes I think of it as a beautiful mess.
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
You know, it’s it’s messy. Sometimes it’s that like, the ugly cry that we talked about sometimes. Not that we as guys ever want to admit that we do that. But maybe inside we do, but it’s a beautiful mess. That is, that’s what makes us human. You know? If it was it was a lot of somebody said this one time? Do you want to believe the beautiful lies or the ugly truth?
Sometimes that’s the ugly truth that actually caused us to be more human and actually learn from our experience. Speaking of learning, from the experience, I have I have the opinion that this period that we’re in right now is probably it will go down in history as one of the most powerful learning moments for organizations to you know, it’s almost like we’ve just paused has been forced upon us to reflect.
Hey, like, Okay, that was the old normal, there was a lot of good, maybe some bad, maybe even some ugly. Our hand is we’ve been forced to sit, rest, breathe. You know, think about things? How are we going to enter into this new, whatever that new normal will be? We definitely have to shed some things we definitely have to bolster up and some other things.
What are some things? Maybe this is for you, Danny, what are some things that organizations can really sink their teeth in this timeframe of saying, okay, we need to implement a plan for culture change moving forward.
Danny Kim
Wow. How much time do we have? Nah, I’m just kidding.
Steve Chaparro
Maybe a new episode just on that,
Danny Kim
Yeah, yeah no, I’ll say I’ll give two thoughts. One is personal and one is organizational. Personally speaking, I think this is an opportunity for the millennial generation to understand that work is a gift, not a right.
And I think that’s really important, because I think we all came, I mean, a lot of millennials, and I’m generalizing grossly, but we came, you know, we had resources, we had people to catch our backs, you know, we have technology. And so like, we I and I speak for myself, like we’re entitled to a certain extent, like, I deserve a raise, I deserve X amount of dollars I deserve, you know, blah, blah, blah, the list goes on.
And I think in this moment, in my time of kind of solitude and reflection in my furlough stage, I realized that work is truly a gift, and everyday matters and counts. And so I hope that we as a generation, as a culture, we can experience that and know that. I think you would approach work differently versus when you’re like, give me, give me versus how can I give and this is a gift.
So one, I hope that people recognize that too organizationally. I think this is a pivotal moment for organizations to hopefully realize that we were not meant to work alone. And I know that there’s a trend right now that says, remote work, you know, Twitter, we’re not going back, you know, we sell the offices, I work with another consultant that are like, I’ve talked to her about and she’s like, yeah, people are scared, like, they don’t know what to do with their buildings, etc.
And for me, I don’t know if we’re meant to do this alone. And I think that there’s enough science behind why we are social creatures. And I think we do work better together. And so I think this, we may see some remote experiences, we might see virtual collaboration, we might see the technology like zoom, proliferating in our cultures, in our workplaces, but I don’t think it’s going to replace the human interaction, the human face to face connection and what you get from that experience.
So I think leaders and cultures need to think through very carefully what their next plan is, because to do a wholesale shift to let’s just go remote. I don’t know if that’s the answer.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah, I mean, I think I think there are probably two extremes that we could possibly address this whole situation. One is where we could still remain entrenched in the old ways of doing things, because that’s what we’re comfortable. And I don’t know any other way, this is who I am. If I don’t lead this way, then I’m not being true to myself, you know.
And the other extreme is like what you described as wholesale shifts, like, oh, let’s just go to the opposite end of the spectrum. And I think I remember I was a financial advisor for several years and one of the things that that we used to say was like, because I became a financial advisor in the middle of the 2000, you know, at the end of the 2008 recession, a great time to do that, but part of that was because I needed to reinvent myself due to a layoff myself. So I you know, that’s part of my own journey,
But, I remember saying that when people like say, for instance, if people were to get an influx of money, like they win the lottery as an example? What do they do with that money, and a lot of times, they think of all the frivolous things that they want to buy. But anytime we get some sort of windfall, there have been studies that have been done, that the what goes on in our minds, you know, the brain waves and the brain activity that goes in our minds, when we get a windfall is very similar to a mind that is strung out on cocaine.
And like, they’re, they’re in the same state of frantic mindedness. And so would you make a big decision about your future where you and you’re in this frothy kind of a state of mind, and I almost think of it in this time? Let’s not make wholesale shifts? And now let’s remain in trance. But let’s carefully reflect us because we’re dealing with human lives. We’re, yes, we’re dealing with money.
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
We’re dealing with human lives as well as our own. And we need to be careful, but we do need to act.
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
We definitely do need to act.
Danny Kim
Yeah.
Steve Chaparro
What thought? What? Any thoughts? You have Jacques about that?
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah, you know, it’s I, um, I feel like the one thing I think a lot about his, I guess, I think a lot about people in our team a lot. Like, it’s definitely on my mind, probably too much. And one of the things I’ve been thinking about is, as Danny mentioned earlier, we’re social creatures, I’m like, if you want to truly, truly punish someone, you lock them up by themselves. Like, that’s literally what you do when you’re in prison. Like, it’s like you isolate people.
And I, I’m worried about our team, because there are people who live alone, who are self-isolating for, you know, a month, six weeks, like not actually having human interaction. And I think that people are feeling a lot of things right now. And I don’t think that helps to contribute to the energy.
I also would say that I had a, I had a, like a friend who had been in corporate America for 35 years. And he came in the office, and he’s like, I just, he’s mad. He was, like, almost embarrassed. He’s like, I don’t get the open workspace thing. Like, what? Like, why wouldn’t? Wouldn’t you guys be just so much more productive if like, everyone had their own office, or they were like in cubicles? And I told him, I was like, look, I’m like, if you’re talking about having people be here for five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, I’m like, it’s never been about like, you have to have a certain baseline of productivity.
But I’m like, look out there. I’m like, No, girl, Haley, she was like, she just got back from vacation. And there was four people huddled around her computer, she was showing them photos are vacation, and I’m like, that is what matters most. Yeah, like, it’s not the work. I mean, we’re lucky to get to do the work we get to do because it’s creative. And for the most part, it like gets to challenge us in that way. And if you have those passions, it’s fun.
But the end of the day, it’s like, that’s the most important thing that people like, I’m realizing more than ever, the importance of being able to just walk around the block once a day with when your coworkers or walk across the street to grab coffee, and you know, the coffee person across the street and you have your inside joke, and you come back to your desk and you smile because someone sent you a meme, right?
Like that. That is what life’s about, like we’re doing life together. And I would say the last two or three months, we’ve been working together, and we’re trying to find a way to do life and get together again in this virtual environment. But my hope, yeah, we’re definitely gonna have to have a certain level of flexibility in the future. And that should be like, we should use these tools. And we’ve gotten to know zoom a lot better now than before, which which will, will save us a ton of time and energy in the future.
But I really hope that a majority of our team are able to experience the joy of working together again. And I think that, you know, as Danny has been surveying the team, that’s been sort of the result. It’s like, no one wants to work from home on our team forever, at least haven’t verbally said that. But they’ve also haven’t said I also want to only have to work from home.
And I think that that’s really where this is going to net out. But with done for me with the heart of there’s nothing more important. Nothing like there’s no single project or single client or any work that you could do. That’s more important than the relationships that you have with the people that you love to work.
Like, that’s what makes it a joy to be there. And that’s why selfishly, we hire who we hire, because I’ve always said, I would be so happy to grab lunch with anyone on our team, because everyone is just a joy to be around. And that’s the goal, whether we have you know, 40 people, 50 people or 100 people, like that’s the goal. And if we can accomplish that, then hopefully great work will follow and it hasn’t passed. So
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
That sounds so great. I mean, it just uh, you know, I’m sure that people who are hearing this either one might be saying, hey, I’d love to work at Raindrop. Or two, how can we make our firm you know, very much like that, you know, with it, you know, for leaders at different stages whether people are starting out their mid-career or they you know, they’re in, you know, the second or third decade of their career. I think those are all great inspiration. So thank you guys for sharing that.
Without the answers yet to how the new normal is going to look like in terms of, is it going to be 100% in office with 100% remote? What’s the combination between? What’s day one of the new normal gonna look like? Any work gonna get done? When you get back into the office for the first time,
Danny Kim
Depends on is listening. If our team’s listening, they’re gonna keep us to this,
Steve Chaparro
Maybe we’ll edit this part out. But like, I just imagine, you know, like, what are some of like, I just, I just see it many times. It’s like this huge family reunion, like, okay, we’re not going to be as productive. You know, like people gathering around someone’s desk to show for people pictures of whatever happened.
Danny Kim
Yeah,
Steve Chaparro
What do you imagine? What do you imagine that looks like?
Danny Kim
I think that would be a win, man. See? I mean, yeah, I think I mean, we want to create unforgettable experiences. And I know, we get a chance to all come back together at a certain date, there was like a date marked. I don’t know what that if that’s gonna happen. But if there is, I know that there will be special.
I mean, we had a pizza plan party plan before this, you know, we had all these things that we had planned that we just exed, and I hope that we can be back together in a certain capacity. And, and I think that that’s where some of the magic happens. It’s where trust is built, going back to the previous conversation, it’s, you build trust, when you see somebody’s eye to eye and you can experience their empathy and their pain and their joys and their celebrations.
You know, it’s and that is what allows us to say, I want to work with you, and how can I help you? It’s difficult to build that trust when you kind of don’t have that space together. So I’m hoping for that. I mean, I don’t know what that looks like. We’re in Little Italy. We got food all over the place. I mean, I hope we we have a party, to be honest. Sorry, Jacques, no work that day. You know, it’s honestly,
Jacques Spitzer
It’s funny, because I don’t be weird about this question. But I don’t think that that, that’s not how to me that’s not how this is going to happen. Yeah, we already have four people still working out of the office. Right. And, you know, we have 6000 square feet to themselves.
Danny Kim
Yep,
Jacques Spitzer
I think what’s going to happen is that, because we have certain people with like immune deficiencies, or loved ones with them, or they live with older parents, I think that this is going to be very much a very rolling like, year or more. I think it’s just going to like, instead of, like, in that version of it, it’s like jumping into the deep end. I think it’s gonna be like getting into the shallow end,
Steve Chaparro
Like stages, like stages of entry.
Jacques Spitzer
Yeah, exactly. So I, but I think that what’s fun is that every time there’s a re-entry, there’s going to be those like micro-moments.
Steve Chaparro
Yes,
Jacques Spitzer
Boy, I’ve seen that. It’s so fun to see, even those four people when someone stops by the office, and they’re like, Oh my gosh, yeah. I’ve even had moments where I got like, choked up seeing certain people like, Nora walk through and she surprised me. I didn’t know she was there to pick up something. And I had like, a strong sense of almost nostalgic, like, it really hit me.
So I think there’s just going to be continual waves of moments. And you know, it could take a long time. There’s people that like they don’t know if their kids are going to be in school in the fall.
Steve Chaparro
Yeah,
Jacques Spitzer
There’s going to be life things happening. People that moved maybe back home for a bit you know, instead of paying for their leasing alone, I think they’re just going to be a rolling effect here and but I am very hopeful that you know, this time next year that we are partying together and going on a retreat, but
Steve Chaparro
Yeah, yeah,
Danny Kim
We’re planning that next, 2021 retreat is in the books. We’re working on it.
Steve Chaparro
Well, guys, we’ve this has been a blast chatting with you guys. Folks, we’ve been talking to Jacques and Danny from Raindrop guys if folks want to learn more about you folks and the work that you guys do, where can they go?
Jacques Spitzer
RaindropMarketing.com is probably the best place to go. Those emails, don’t tell anyone all the salespeople out there, but they do go directly to me.
Danny Kim
Very streamline,
Jacques Spitzer
Dang it, we’ve just told all of LinkedIn, it’s like, “Do you need help scaling your agency?”
Steve Chaparro
Yeah, believe me. I’ve had some posts where I posted something about like this thing that I’m pondering and literally like five or 10 inbox messages, for sure. Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate this. This has been a blast having a chat with you.
Jacques Spitzer
Thanks, Steve.
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