027 : Leading Well in Every Moment Through Improvisation with David A. Miller

Different points in an organization’s life require different types of leaders. Likewise, different members of your teams respond to different leadership styles. An architect projects the vision that serves as the foundation of the company in its earliest days. As the company begins to scale, flexibility and adaptation become paramount to creating and building momentum, requiring a facilitator to step up and begin delegating roles. Finally, the company’s lasting success and capacity for significance demand a coach to empower each and every member of the team.

One of the biggest misconceptions about leadership is the idea that every situation can be handled using a linear, scripted process. In reality, things don’t always work out the way you planned. The better approach to leadership? A readiness to respond appropriately in the moment. Only the best musicians can improv. Improvisation is all about drawing on your “skills, talent, wiring, and training” to contribute to whatever needs to be done in the moment; and this requires mastery of everything in your toolkit.

Steve Chaparro and David A. Miller discuss how you can “take the messiness of the people you’re leading and make something beautiful by understanding who they are as individuals.” Stay tuned.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• Why staffing shouldn’t end with recruitment
• David’s thoughts on the leader’s journey from architect, to facilitator to coach
• How leadership styles evolved between generations
• Inspirations behind, and key takeaways from, David’s book Improv Leadership
• The five core competencies of leaders who can lead well at any moment
• Why some of the biggest companies struggle to attract and keep the best people
• The “New Normal” of leadership post-COVID-19

Resources Mentioned in this episode:

• David A Miller on LinkedIn
• Slingshot Group
• Book: “Improv Leadership: How to Lead Well in Every Moment” *

About the Guest:

David A Miller is the Vice President of Coaching at Slingshot Group, host of the Slingshot Group podcast, and co-author of Improv Leadership: How to Lead Well in Every Moment (2020). David’s unique approach to coaching on leadership and staffing is defined by a desire to get to the heart of a person in order to unlock who they really are and help them to lead in any moment.

He graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Religion at Liberty University.

Sponsor for this episode:

This podcast is brought to you by Culture Design Studio. This is where I help creative organizations transform their cultures from being controlling to being collaborative. If you want to know more about I provide facilitation and coaching for your creative team, reach out to me at CultureDesignStudio.com.

This episode is also brought to you by DesignThinkers Group, USA, an innovation support. To learn more about DesignThinkers Group, go to DesignThinkersGroup.us.

*As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.

Full Transcript: Powered by Otter.ai

Announcer 

Welcome to the Culture Design Show where we feature conversations with leaders and thinkers who are passionate about culture and design. Now, let’s get started with the show.

Steve Chaparro 

This podcast is brought to you by Culture Design Studio. This is where I help creative organizations transform their cultures, from being controlling to being collaborative. Now, here are some of the things that I’ve learned. Your creative talent demands a co creative culture in order to produce their best work. But there’s a problem. So let’s see if we can recognize some of these signs. There’s no framework to move your culture forward. You have high turnover and low morale. There’s increasing toxicity across all levels. There’s team engagement and satisfaction that are on the decline. There’s a misalignment between the employer brand and the employee experience and there’s poor communication about expectations and values. So if you want to learn more about how I provide facilitation and coaching for your creative team, reach out to me at culturedesignstudio.com.

My guest today is my good friend David Miller, Vice President of Coaching at Slingshot Group. David, I’m really happy that you are here. David is the host of the Slingshot Group Podcast as well. And he is the co- author of the new book “Improv Leadership: How to Lead Well in Every Moment. David, welcome to the Culture Design Show.

David A. Miller 

Steve, it’s so good to be with you, man.

Steve Chaparro 

We know we’ve been talking about your book coming up for a while. I know that you spent a lot of time working with Stan Endicott on just coming up with developing the improv leadership, curriculum and format and and then for it to be released now as a book is I just as a friend, I couldn’t be more excited for you. But also as a As a professional, just so glad that you’re going to be able to get this information into the hands of leaders everywhere.

David A. Miller 

Man, I really appreciate that. It it’s a, it’s honestly, it’s weird, weird feeling. We didn’t set out to write a book, you know, to be honest with you this was this was a coaching strategy, right that we were putting out, you know, I get to leave the coaching team at 21 coaches at slingshot group. And we were just trying to figure out you know, what makes us unique as coaches, how do we get to the heart of a person to really be able to unlock who they are and help them to lead in every moment. And, and these, you know, five competencies came up, we’ve been training them we’ve brought a few thousand leaders through these trainings that we’ve been doing over the last few years. And you know, now it’s a book and a little ton of really cool stories. You know, when you get someone like Stan into caught riding with you, he has some of these just just great stories about his life in ministry as a producer for You know, these different record labels and all the stuff he’s done and so it’s, it’s been a blast really cool.

Steve Chaparro 

Well I we’re gonna get into the where the bulk of our conversation is going to be around the book but before we go into that I’d love to if you can share with our audience a little bit more about yourself, give us an idea of your your leadership journey, and you know, kind of create the arc and to the point that you came to the slingshot group.

David A. Miller 

Yeah, you know, my man, I took a roundabout path if I’m honest, you know, I, I was a high school dropout. I don’t talk about that a ton, but I was, you know, I was a high school dropout, I ended up not not for, you know, maybe the reasons that that happens. But, um, but for me, I joined the band. I was 17 years old, and we went on tour for about five years. And, you know, and that this group was singing in schools and in churches and and, you know, different, you know, different clubs and what not. And it was so fun.

And I and I got to see it, you know, and though I, I would say there was leadership involved, I would end up being kind of the The band kind of tour manager and some of those things, in addition to being in the group itself, but what what I noticed was I all these organizations that we’d come into, and I would and I would be almost like tearing apart the leadership, you know, trying to figure out what makes them who they are, yeah, when we go to this church or or this school or, you know, this other organization, and, and I started kind of thinking, Man, I, this leadership thing, I think, I think I can be a part of that I think I can do that. went to college, was you know, in restaurant management, and, you know, had an opportunity to kind of be an owner operator in that space, but, but for me, I always wanted to be a youth pastor. That was like, my big my big push man was I feel like, you know, my entire life changed because I had this youth pastor that I think your audience be fine. The way I stated.

Yeah, I had a youth pastor who gave a crap about me and I was that problem kid, right. You know, I mean, how many times you have Like the kid that joined a band, right? So I was that I was that kid that you you should want in your youth ministry but most don’t. Right? And, and so man, that was the aspiration was to go do that I, I ended up being a youth pastor in, in Orlando, Florida, and you know, took over a five campus youth ministry and, you know, we would launch our own camps and as always entrepreneurial, right, always trying to how do we move this forward? How do we bring people with us? What is this going to look like? We launched our own camps, which are still going on to this day. You know, they’re at this was, you know, I’ve been in Long Beach now almost 10 years. So that, you know, this was 15 plus years ago. And then came to or, you know, came to Long Beach.

Steve Chaparro 

Long Beach! That’s the that’s the lb behind you. We’re both Long Beachians.

David A. Miller 

That’s right. That’s right. And so I got involved with the great community out here. And, and man, I met the team at slingshot group. A few years before I joined and Monty Kelso who’s the president said, Hey, we’re going to start a student ministry division. And they didn’t do that at first for staffing. And we think you’re going to be a big part of that. And so I, I helped launch this, the student ministry staffing side of slingshot group. Start with just me, we’ve placed, you know, over three or 400 Youth pastors over the last eight years now, and it’s just been a blast. And about two years ago, they asked me if I would hand that over to, you know, basically a next gen team and and take over as the vice president of coaching and I’d been doing some coaching and just seemed like a really amazing opportunity to build into other parts of leadership. And so I’ve been doing that for a little while.

Again, we built it up, got 21 coaches, and it has been it has just been a blast, man watching. watching those light bulb moments. That’s when I was a youth pastor. You know, you hear this from youth pastors a lot. The thing that you love is that light bulb moment that moment that student goes from from I don’t get it. Whoa, that’s game changer. And man, as a coach, you get to do that with with adults. You know, you get to you get to walk with people through these moments of, I don’t get it, why do I not have breakthrough? Why have I plateaued in my leadership? What’s this problem that I’ve been experiencing? And as a coach, you get to kind of stretch their mind a little bit and this light bulb moment goes off. And for me, that’s that’s the payoff. Dude. It’s a blast.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah, I mean, I love that too. Whether it’s a whether it’s teaching. I mean, I actually most people don’t know this, but I actually started my leadership in in youth ministry as well. I was 15. When I took my first leadership role of a junior high ministry, I was literally a couple of years older than the other kids in the group. And I’ve gone through different leadership roles from a Bible vocational perspective. So Not only have I been in the marketplace for 20 plus years, but I’ve always been in ministry. And you’re right, that aha moment, even if it takes literally 20 years for that aha moment to happen, or at least you didn’t know it happened and you have some of those kids, young people, just adults that come to you leaders later and say, you know, Steve, that one thing that you told us like, I want you to know, it’s sunk in I may not have shown it. Yeah, but it’s sunk in those are some of the most fulfilling moments ever.

David A. Miller 

When I don’t think people really if you haven’t been in and I know you know, this, the audience we’re talking with isn’t isn’t all in like a church context right now. And I love that. I don’t think people if you haven’t been in it, you don’t realize, but in order to really, you know, be an effective leader within a church context, you have to be kind of a master of a lot. You know, there there is something about like as a youth pastor, I had to I had to beat the market. I had to design I had to teach You know, I stood in front of thousands and taught, you know, I had to be I had a staff that I had to run, I had to mobilize volunteers, so people that would do what we wanted for free. I mean, the things that you have to be able to develop as a leader in that context really can translate and so, you know, and that proves it and, you know, when this improv leadership stuff that we’re talking about, you know, before the book ever was even a thought we were training. I was training This not only in churches, we trained it for the YMCA, I trained in police department, Hermosa Beach Police Department went through this training, we had at least the lieutenants and captains, we have like two credit unions that have gone. You know, so it’s it.

David A. Miller 

The principles translate into so many different context as you walk through it. And to me that’s been an eye opener because I think at first I thought, yeah, I’m on hold. This is just a, this is a church thing or this is anything thing. And and what I’ve realized more than ever is that leadership, the principles of leadership are universal. If I’ve seen people, you have to be able to get to the heart of who they are, they want to be seen, they want to be known. And you have to move from this mindset of being a their boss to being their coach. Yeah. And that matters, man, if does no matter what it is, what’s the context?

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah, I absolutely agree that leadership is a universal idea. And these principles translate and transfer over to multiple domains. I mean, I truly think that, you know, I want some of the graduate work or graduate work that I did at Parsons School of Design, was this, this idea of, I came into it thinking that there were some specific nuances about creative firms or agencies regarding culture, but why not? And so I went in with that idea that there was a specific, like, we’re a different breed, or, you know, we can’t be the same as everybody else. And so I went in Do it and the research did not prove that to be correct in that culture is about human beings. Yes, human beings are, you know, the same all over in terms of that we are equally human. And we we suffer from the same challenges. And we can also motivate, inspire, persuade in the same way, regardless of what domain you’re in it in. And so I love that that’s something that you discovered, and I hope that our audience today will be able to make that mental bridge in terms of, you know, maybe some of the context of the conversation we’re talking about today has been from the faith world, but it does absolutely translate to, to the creative sectors as well, for sure.

What was the reason that you folks that Slingshot because you you started off as a staffing company, staffing, you know, key leadership roles at at nonprofits and churches? What was the reason you actually went into coaching and you know, to the point that it created a whole new business line at slingshot.

David A. Miller 

Yeah, man, you know, obviously staffing is so big the idea that we have at slingshot is, you know, we build remarkable teams that was kind of our tagline for so long and still is and and this this thing we’re able to get behind start asking, though, well, man, bringing in a great leader is only half the battle, you have to be able to bring them into a culture that they can thrive in. And what we were finding is that some, you know, some of these organizations they were, they were, like the same, like, you know, we’re working with the same organizations over and over and over again, because they became a revolving door for their staff. And, and for us, we’re starting to kind of wonder about how do we, you know, shift this? How do we make sure that when it’s all said and done that, that we’re building remarkable teams in a way that that people that we place can stay there, can thrive there can grow there and can multiply there. And so for us that that started, you know. 

You’re only relegated to this one sector where it’s like, well just give us a candidate and then leave us alone. Yeah, which is what kind of a staffing world tends to be. But that’s okay. And I and I get that. But we started earning voice. And we actually found that as we were spending time with these different organizations, they were they were reaching back out to us anyway, saying, Hey, what are you seeing out there? Because we’re in, you know, hundreds of churches, hundreds of nonprofits, you know, in a given, you know, a couple month period. And so they’re like, you know, what are you seeing what can you show us, you know, right now, during all the stuff, right, you know, that that’s happening today as we’re recording during COVID. You know, I right after this, you know, interview I’ve got I got back to back calls about churches trying to figure out how do I how do we reopen? What does reentry look like? Yeah, to nonprofits that I’m talking to today that are trying to think through, how do I reengage my staff, because I don’t know how to engage with them right now, when we’re all in the same office. We’ve never, we’ve never built that before. 

And so and so it’s slingshot with We started saying, well, man, they’re already coming to us for this. The opportunity is obviously right in front of us. What will it look like for us to to develop something that is transferable. And that’s where our coaching came, you know, came from. So what we’ve done is we put together what we would say, you know, we’re very selective of who we allow to be coaches with us. So it’s not like, you know, and I and I do understand these programs as well. And I have, it’s not just a certification that you can go get and anyone who will pay for it can have a certification. We hand select our coaches will help them get certified in many of the things that they’re certified in. And then we give them this toolbox that we call improv leadership that we think is one of the better toolboxes out there. And that combination brings breakthrough for the people that we work with.

Steve Chaparro 

We we got together when we’ve met previously here in Long Beach even before we became part of sister organizations. I worked at visionary studios, which was a sister company To slingshot group at the time, and that was what you’re saying about, well, we could definitely offer staffing solutions. But might we be doing them a disservice to the candidate, if we don’t place them into a culture that is healthy, thriving, and things like that. That’s also a lesson that we learned at visionary studios was that we were trying to tell the story of the organization in their space. However, if their story wasn’t healthy, that we might actually doing somewhat of a disservice by saying that the space was a problem with a solution for for their organizational, you know, mission and vision. And so we started to see a big need for work to be done internally like the inner work the culture of the organization, and that’s what led me to actually start culture design studio and actually say, Okay, I want to help us design principles to help redesign the culture of an orange

David A. Miller 

Absolutely, yeah. If you only it was symptoms versus the the underlying issue, right? And so, so absolutely, yeah, they need a new space or a, you know, better use of their space for sure. Do they need a new staff member? For sure. But do they need that underlying issue? And all the people we coach have this underlying video, but this underlying issue of, of just health? What does it look like for us to create an environment where that space is going to be used in a healthy way, you know, into the future? Right. And that’s a matter so much

Steve Chaparro 

One of the ideas that I’m exploring and I’d love to get your thoughts because, you know, being that you’re part of an organization business unit within an organization. I’ve had this this thought about how leaders in many cases and many organizations, especially those that are high growth, and there’s a special type of leader that will one start, like be basically a startup founder. Whether you’re talking about a company a nonprofit agency, Or even a church, there’s a special personality that is required an entrepreneurial spirit that is required. And what I see is almost the posture and mindset of a leader being an architect. 

And I’m, of course going to use my design language, but an architect being, I’m the mastermind of this, I’m going to map out the vision, I’m going to share this, this is where we are going, come and join me as we embark on this predetermined journey. And I think that’s very important for a leader to act as an architect early on, but then what I realized as as the company organization grows and scales, that they must transition from being an architect to a facilitator, and then ultimately a coach, because they can’t do the things for them themselves. What are your thoughts about that framework? Because obviously coaches in your framework, what are your thoughts about that and I welcome you to push back as well.

David A. Miller 

Yeah, well, you know, again, kind of thinking it hearing it for the first time thinking about it for the first time. You know, I love the concept of the architect and the beginning because yeah, you do you, you got to have a little bit of that it doesn’t exist, but I see it in my mind and I can bring it to life, right. So there is this, like this creator, driver, you know, thing that has to happen. What I find in the lifecycle of a lot of organizations is that they, a lot of them start with that person. And then we get to the second part that you talked about where where you have to kind of scale it. Yeah, that now you actually have to, you know, now you actually have to build the thing. And, and and engage with other people and sometimes the architects not great at that, you know, like that, you know that that driver personality, right struggle in that second category. Because, you know, you’re you’re casting the vision, they could do well, that you’re bringing everyone but then to actually bring everyone along with you sometimes that that dreamer has to be able to slow down enough. Yeah, to make sure that they’re looking behind them and saying, Are you still with me? Do you still get it? Come on. Let’s Go. And those driver personalities can’t always hang there, right. But if you can do that, and you’ve you’ve laid the foundation and you’re moving everyone forward, then yeah, you have to get that point where now you’re a developer.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

Now you need to be at this level, in your leadership that you’re giving away that actually, their success is your success. Right. So, so what I have loved even about slingshot group money, and Stan, you know, the founders of the organization, they’ve done this really great, great job of being able to say, hey, David, you know, Tim, and you know, all the people that are part of our deal. We want to we want to highlight you and if you’re successful, then that actually will speak to the entire organization.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

They give us every tool imaginable. And they give us they’re, they’re our cheerleaders, and they are our, you know, I mean, they are our PR people and they are you know, they they just they give it all away. Yeah, and I find that that’s unique. get to that place most people that are talented enough to start something, want to be the star of the thing, right? They want it to you know, it’s their name attached, it’s their personality and they become the brand. And if you yourself are the brand, it is really hard to let anyone else shine in your orbit. right because it you know, it feels like there’s this scarcity mentality that if you’re gonna win, then I’m going to lose. And I love when I get a chance to be a part of organizations and I feel this way myself some of my some of the things and why I know I love coaching so much is I I feel awkward being the star.

You don’t mean like we’ve got a book coming out, man, that’s, that’s really cool. And they’re like, Hey, you should you should make these videos you should, you know, speak at this conference. You should be on this podcast and like, Yeah, man, that’s gonna be a lot of fun. I feel weird about that. You know what I mean? Like, I get the most Like life, when someone I’m coaching someone I’m leading, is like thriving man that I can I can ride that wave, you know, for a month. But when it’s me, you know, I have my own insecurities and you know whatever’s there and so, so I do I like the architect to the coach. And I and I wonder, I wonder, in the design world I’d put to you, you know, what is the what is the path for someone because because those all feel like natural wirings true. Is it possible for someone who’s naturally wired as a as an architect to pick up the tools and to move forward into then being a developer and being QA And then third becoming a coach?

Steve Chaparro 

That’s a great question, I think is I think some people might say, Well, you know, I’m not like that. I’m not the type of person that is gonna sit down, slow down, and to ask questions into you know, Lead a person to water? If I’m the one that’s always driving? i? That’s a great question. And I think part of me, part of me thinks that some of those things can be learned in terms of, you know, when an architect says, I am the subject matter expert, and then transitions to, we need to have a facilitator type of leadership in terms of inviting employees and team members into the thought process and saying, I want you to help me own this. That’s a very tough thing, especially when we come from many generations of this top down command and control type of structures in our organization. It’s a very hard thing.

So I think, one some of these, these tools and skills are learnable. But I think the other part is, is to bring people who are well versed in that particular type of leadership to complement who you are, in terms of as a leader, but I don’t think I don’t think a leader should just resign themselves and say, well, that’s not who I am. So I’m not going to be like that. I think that if leaders are not more inclusive, whether as a facilitator or coach, and they’re not developing leaders underneath them, I believe that these high performing or high, high potential leaders will actually end up moving on because I think as new generations come in you you’re you work with a lot of millennial leaders. And my my question back to you is, are you seeing a different posture of leaders in different generations on how they respond to leaders that, you know, like, say, for instance, if a lead if there’s a millennial leader is not satisfied with their boomers or Gen X leader? How are they responding the same or differently as a Gen X in that position versus a boomer, what are some of the thoughts?

David A. Miller 

Well, so so let me touch this real fast and then and I’ll be able to To wrap that in, you know, I was thinking about while you’re talking, I, in order to be all three of those roles that you’ve described, before we we do we have to be willing to give away and to lean in and to supplement. Yeah, right. So but we supplement with other people. So, you know, I don’t want someone to change their natural wiring, you should live into your natural wiring and the things you’re able to do, but not to then just abdicate and say, I don’t do that. I actually think that the best leaders, wherever you are, whether you’re a facilitator, whether you’re a coach, whether you’re the architect, wherever you are on that spectrum, the best leaders are able to see and understand the people that they’re leading us.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

And, and so maybe you won’t be all three of those, but you are able to identify what your people need from you. And so an example is, you know, I’ll have people that will say to me, Well, I don’t, I’m not going to slow down. I’m not going to, you know, ask those questions, David that you’ve asked us to ask everybody. I’m not going to do that. And, and I found that that each person and then we can get the generations response differently to different kinds of coaches.

Like I remember playing sports growing up. Yeah. I remember I had this coach that yelled at everybody, you know, I mean, he’s just a yeller, like, you know, and just, you know, he yell, and he would swear, and he would spit and you’d kick the dirt and you know, all this stuff, right? And we won championships with that coach like that, like we did. Well, now, that made me want to quit, like when he would yell at me, like, oh, gosh, I’m done with this guy. You know, I mean, I like the rebel in me one to push it, but I had friends that would lean into him.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

And I would say to this day, one of the best coaches have ever had. We had another coach at you know, in another sport that I was playing. And he was like, he was like, Dad, you know, I mean, he was like, which at least what you would want your dad to be like, crying, you know, he was the guy who just like, come around. Yeah. And, and, you know, grabbed by the shoulders and just just speak truth into you, and man, and again, and we won championships, and there was something about those Different types of coaches and what I’m finding when, when we’re coaching other leaders, when we’re when we’re leading a staff, you have to know which one you’re supposed to be, there will be people on your staff that need a kick in the pants, there’ll be people on your staff that that what will motivate them is that kind of charge the hill, we can do this, they need to be inspired by you. And they may be a little afraid of you. And that’s gonna motivate them to do some really big and good things.

There are others that need you to feel just cared for by you. But the number one thing they need, and that’s our job, I believe, as leaders to figure out which is which not to be binary in ourselves and to say I’m only one or the other, is to figure out Well, which one does this person need from me Does this team need from me and to the best of our ability lean into those types of things? And or only hire people that can be led by the way that we lead? Right, you know, very true generationally. You know, I think We’re seeing that you know, pretty non stop. I think we see with with a boomers charge the hill, I’m going to take it, we’re going to go. There’s something that that seems to motivate that generation in a really good way. Again, not that I don’t want to be cared for. But that, you know, I was talking to a group of boomers about millennials a few weeks ago, and they and they’re just like, man, they’re just so sensitive. You know, to me, they don’t want you know, almost the touchy feely Enos of that, a boomer that would turn off a boomer. Yeah, yeah. Right. They’re like what, you know, what, what do you need from you? They feel like you’re trying to manipulate them.

Steve Chaparro 

It’s like, yo, idea buckle up, Buttercup. He was like, We’re not here. You know, there’s no crying in baseball type of

David A. Miller 

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Then Then you have, you know, I think I think with I think with Gen X, and again, some of this just comes down to like some translation, you know, yeah, concepts, which which we can get into if we want to, but for I think for Gen X, Gen X is just pretty small generation. That’s a Gen X is trying to figure out like, you know, where do I fit in this, and I’m not going to go all the way to So too, you know, my dad, my grandpa, we’re gonna lean into this, you know, in a brand new direction and so again that became this this work ethic that became You know, this I’m gonna go my own path within genetics that I think was really a beautiful thing and worked out really well and and allowed them to be kind of quirky because that was what’s funny is it you know, again it’s a Seinfeld generation right? It’s this idea of like, like I don’t I don’t need to do it the way everyone else that I’m going to go this way. And and it works. It worked really well.

I think for millennials, the rule book got thrown out man, you know, with with millennials, this is the first generation that didn’t need any governing body to to validate them. So they don’t need a publisher to tell them that they have that they wrote a good book because they can just go publish it themselves. And, and and make it successful or not successful based on what they’re doing and their own efforts. The music industry crumbled around millennials. Right, because I don’t need a record label to tell me that I have a good band, I can just put it online and let the masses decide if they like it or not. And so that that concept where you no longer needed authority for answers, changes everything. Again, when I worked construction with my grandpa for a little while, he needed to teach me everything he needed to teach me how that tool work.

Steve Chaparro

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

No one needs to teach a millennial anything because they can just Google it. Yeah, and so now what a millennial values over your information that you can offer and your experience, they value the behind the scenes look of your experience. And so you know, I think for a millennial, they are looking at you as their supervisor as I mean, you are Google you are you are Can I I when I call you when I text you will you text me back and let me know what your favorite restaurant is, or when you made this mistake, or how I can avoid doing this in my marriage or fill in the blank, right? They want that insight or A true heart information. And if all you’re giving them is the How to manual, they don’t actually need you for that. And I think that’s why, you know, there’s there’s the context of all Millennials are entitled or millennials, you know, why don’t they just stick to the program or because they don’t need to

Steve Chaparro 

Right. And that’s the sense that I get to and I think that’s the word of caution to Gen X leaders and Boomer leaders is that part of the reason why we must embrace some of the qualities of a facilitator and a coach is because if we don’t, the millennials will vote with their feet, and they will leave because they won’t tolerate it because in their minds, they don’t have to, exactly they don’t have to tolerate it. So if we want to attract and retain good members on our team, then we have to look at other things in terms of other other ways to learn. lead in ways that we haven’t had to lead before. And that’s, that’s the growing sense that I’m getting about that.

David A. Miller 

When I get it, I get it because Gen X and boomers believe like, hey, they should have to pay the same dues that I had. That really is what what it’s all about. I don’t I think that most when you really sit down with someone of one of those two generations, they actually admire the drive and the hustle of the average millennial. What they’re what they’re frustrated by, is why do they get to skip the line? And I did. Yeah. And so it really comes down to this entitlement idea of I didn’t get to do that. Why should they? You know, I can’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard that well, I worked for only this much money and I swept up every day and I and that’s awesome. And that was the path then. 

We have this new path now. Now, I will also say that I don’t think millennials get off scot free in this I will also say that there is this that you know, we are seeing Crash and burn thing happening with millennials, where, because they’re not paying dues because they’re not getting the basics because all they have to do is Google it. And they and they don’t know how they’re going to respond when they stub their toe in business. They don’t know how they’re going to respond when the market crashes or you know, obviously, my things. And so there is a double edged sword here that we’ve got to figure out and the people that I’m finding millennials specifically that I’m finding that are that are killing it right now. are the ones who are saying I will, I will kiss the ring a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I I do want to sit at your feet. But I don’t want to anyone learn from you. And you know, it can be kind of a dust of the rabbi I want. I want to know to get on me, but I don’t want to be you. And there’s this there’s this. There’s a healthy piece to that. There’s a healthy piece of saying I want to learn from you. I don’t want to be you. And I think what happened in mentoring for for boomers and Gen X is that we were looking for people that we wanted to become Millennials are not looking for someone that they want to become. They have they are becoming who they are. And you can influence it. But you can’t make me want to be you. Yeah, I think there is a distinction there.

Steve Chaparro 

That’s so good. So many things to think about somebody has inflows. And I think there’s wonderful qualities about every generation. And I think part of I think sometimes for those of us like, I’m smack dab middle of the Gen X generation, I’m 46. And for my parents in the, in the boomer generation, I think part of what we have come to value is it’s whether it’s about paying the dues or not, but, you know, there was frustration in our journey. There was times where we couldn’t get to where we want it to go. And, you know, the, you know, the timing of Providence deemed it necessary for us to wait 1015 years because in the interim, we learned a lot our character was fashion and I think sometimes if we have the ability now In our current context, to skip to the end, right lose out on the lessons learned in the journey. And I think absolutely we may not express that, that that’s where it’s all at. But at the end of the day, we learn probably most by our mistakes and in the brain damage of the journey. Yeah. And I think that’s possibly the detriment of having the ability to skip to the end, but then defrauding ourselves of the journey.

David A. Miller 

Yeah, no, I think that’s that. That’s really good. That’s really good.

Steve Chaparro 

This podcast is brought to you by DesignThinkers Group an innovation support firm. I am joined today by Mark Bolick, who is the Managing Partner. Welcome, Marc.

Marc Bolick 

Thanks, Steve. It’s great to be part of the Culture Design Show.

Steve Chaparro 

Mark, a lot of people are curious about what makes design thinking useful for culture change. Can you give us your perspective on that?

Marc Bolick 

Yeah, that’s a great question. And Steve is, you know, Design Thinking is a problem solving methodology that’s based on building empathy for people. And it’s, I think through that building empathy for the people that you’re serving that gives people a purpose to their work. And I think there could be no better foundation for building a people centered culture than that.

Steve Chaparro 

Marc. I think I agree with that. That’s the reason why we do work together. Folks, if you want to learn more about design thinkers group, go to designthinkersgroup.us.

Steve Chaparro 

Well, let’s move over to your book. I’d love for you to share a little bit about what led you to write this book and let’s get into some of the principles that we learned about it.

David A. Miller 

When we started to understand you know, when we were thinking about what what does it mean to be to be a good coach? And there are so many and really good, really good tools out there that walk people through in a linear fashion. You know, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this. And we started to understand that actually, leadership and coaching is far more nuanced than that. What what it actually is, is you should have like a toolbox full of great tools. And you as a system design, you know, you as the contractor, you as the builder, you should know when to use the hammer and when to use the screwdriver when to use the drill. We want to make sure you have the best hammer, the best screwdriver the best drill. 

And so for our coaches, we decided we didn’t want to go linear. We wanted to just give them a toolbox that allowed them to lean into their giftings. So we thought of this concept of improv and what does it mean to truly improv? If you have musicians that are listening, you know, I again I was in this band, you know, I was musician. Only the best musicians can improv. improv like you have To be so proficient at your instrument, you have to understand the rules in such a way that only the best could stand in front of a crowd with different musicians and contribute in the moment. You know, if you’ve ever been to an improv comedy show only the best I mean, people, you know, are trained for years before they ever hit the stage to do improv in front of a live audience and they practice together and they have the same troupe of people and and they build a rapport.

What improvisation is is drawing on your skill, your talent, your wiring, your training, and being able to contribute, when whatever you know arises. We started kind of thinking about that idea, man, I believe that leaders need to learn how to improv their leadership.

There is no script for leadership we think there is we think that there’s a linear fashion for how you’re supposed to do things. And and and I think we’ve just done that. Because we’re moving so quickly in our organizations that we were afraid to, to slow down enough to see what’s actually happening around us and make the decision in the moment.

And so, you know, this this book, we found five core competencies that we believe if you master these five core competencies, you will be able to lead in any moment, you will be able to, you know, again, that idea of contribute, I am finding that leaders today are far better at observation and act and maybe even in this negative criticism. We have substituted criticism for leadership in our culture. I think if I watch what you do, if I’m watching this live stream, if I disagree with something and if I blast you on what I disagree with, that makes me a better leader than you. And and we’re watching that happen in our culture. I would I would posit that if we can move from criticism to contribution That’s what leadership is actually all about. And so again, these five competencies are, are thought out.

And with that in mind, each one of them are like groundbreaking as far as you know, oh my gosh, I never would have thought of that. But what we’ve done in each one is we’ve reframed it, and we give tools that will help make you better. So let’s say, you know, in our first one, we call it story mining, you know, story. So it’s thoughtfully uncovering the person’s story, and allowing it to shape the way you lead. I’ve never talked to a leader that would say, I don’t need to know someone’s story. stories don’t matter. I’ve never had anyone say that to me before. Like everyone would agree. Stories matter, right? Like, yeah, no, understanding how someone is wired and the history they have that matters. And that’s where it’s kind of stops. And most things I’ve seen are inspirational in that way. Hey, learn your team’s story. And you’re like, yeah, I should do that. But it doesn’t go the next step and say, and here’s how you can learn your team’s story.

Let’s say you’re not actually naturally good at this. Here’s how you can become better at it. And so we talk about in story mining competency, how to become what we call a professional question asker. Yeah, does it mean to become a connoisseur of questions to understand questions in such a way and to get to know someone by asking the right question in the right moment. And we give them three ways of asking questions within this competency. We do one in writing. So there’s like a questionnaire that will have like new team members or to kind of come in every once in a while just to refresh. Spoken questions in the book. And in a training, we give seven pages of questions to the person that that is coming into, I think we, we we pare it down a little bit in the book. But we want to start you with like, how do you ask the right question and the right moment. And then we actually came up with this thing called the six sketch storyboard, where we invite people to draw their answers to questions and it just unlocks this other person. There’s other part of a person’s brain. That kind of stuff man, like can can move you from being someone who I kind of know my staff right to someone who’s like I understand them. And then that second part of the definition of the competency, and I’m going to allow their story to shape the way that I lead them.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah, it’s so good. I mean, when you when you say that, it reminds me of the, the French physician who invented the stethoscope, and he would you when he would train the future doctors of his day, he had this one phrase that says, Listen to your patients, and they’re telling you how to heal them. Wow is very much the same thing with with what you’re saying about learning their story. It’s listening to your team members there they will actually tell you how to lead them if you just took some time to listen to their story.

David A. Miller 

That’s exactly it.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah. I love that. So I want to I want to step back real quick on the on the the general theme then we want to go into the second with the general theme of how to lead well in every moment. Like I mean, how How appropriate and relevant is that to this day in our day that we’re experiencing right now have been able to leave well in every moment. And I think so much of what we have done in leadership for the last maybe 234 decades, is it’s almost like a form of retrospective leadership in that we are relying on best practices of the past.

David A. Miller 

Exactly.

Steve Chaparro 

And and if we’re not able to improvise, or be agile, be responsive in the moment to understand I mean, one of the things we talked about in the design world is this acronym of vuca. And that we live in a volatile times, uncertain times, complex times and ambiguous times. So in this vuca environment, we can no longer resort to the things that worked in the past, because we no longer have the the leadership computational skills, to kind of like embrace everything that is going on and Make it the solution ourselves. So we have to be responsive and let some of those things emerge from our current context. And I feel so much that what you’re saying resonates with that of how being able to be responsive and improvise to the current environment and especially as you’re saying, to, to understand the story of our team members.

David A. Miller 

Why I think I think you’re right on, Steven. I, you should learn from best practices, you know, I mean, you know, again, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, you know, the adage, you know, you got to learn history, or you’re doomed to repeat it, I get, and I live that, and yet things are changing so quickly. You know, mine’s me of a quote, and I’m sure I’ll butcher it. But, you know, from, you know, president of Pixar where, you know, says, like, you know, study trends and follow no one. Yeah, and there’s this idea of, of you should know, what’s happening in what has worked. But in our culture today, technology is changing, like, you know, it’s it. What is the rule? I mean, it’s something crazy, right? It’s like, you know, it It increases exponentially. Every year, there’s like, you know, we’re so much further ahead. And that changes the entire game, what we’re doing right now we’re going live on two platforms, then you’re going to put it out as a podcast. And this is a form of leadership that that wasn’t even, that wasn’t even thought of just even a few years ago, the only aspects of what we’re doing now is actually would have actually been possible.

And so and so yeah, we have to be able to improv because we’re not working with machines. We’re working with people, people are messy. People are, it’s not perfect, and they’re gonna mess up and they’re gonna, they’re gonna have a fight with their significant other and then come into work and that tension is going to be there. In the middle of your meeting, there’s going to be a meeting that your boss was in and, and they just totally got ripped apart. And now you’re coming in asking for more budget or a new project. I mean, and we wonder why people don’t respond perfectly the way that we the way that every book says they’re supposed to respond. It’s Because we’re people.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

Because, again, that messiness. And so how do you respond with best practices with tools that are tried and true? How do you respond in a moment that allows that moment not to just fall flat? Because it wasn’t perfect? Yeah. But actually, maybe that that imperfection builds it in a brand new way, my understanding, and I’m not a designer, but my understanding of design, my understanding of art in general, and the different things that I’ve been a part of like music is that actually when things are constructed, that forces innovation and isn’t the men, the biggest budgeted movies of all time were major flops, because they didn’t actually have to make an artistic choice. They just threw money at the problem. And then people like why don’t get it right. 

And you know, in design, some of my favorite buildings are designs that that actually wrap around a tree and they use the space then around them and they’re able to do within that now, what the tried and true method Be with sec cut all that down, flatten it down, make sure there’s no, you know, there’s no like variance in the things that are happening and just build the box, right? That is a tried and true that will work. It will be structurally sound. People won’t complain about it. But it’s not beautiful. Right? It doesn’t move anyone when you see it. And so what does it look like to take the messiness of the people that we’re leading, and to make something beautiful out of each of those moments by understanding who they are? And by responding to them? Not based on that thing that we read in that book from that guru, but but but respond to them as the individual that’s standing in front of you.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah, that’s that’s improv. That’s so good. That’s so good. So the first competency was story mining, we can give a quick overview of the remaining four as well.

Yeah, so So number two is precision praising, so precision praising is carefully crafting praise to inspire and chorus correct your team I mean, you know it is it is proven that people are more motivated by praise than they are by correction. When when we come at somebody we’re saying now here’s what you’re not good at. People build walls around those conversations. And so what does it look like to be able to use praise in in an intentional way that helps to move people toward the goals that were really will help them and help the company as as a whole. I remember building this competency and I asked Stan and I said, Are we just telling leaders to be nice people? And, and so maybe someone’s listening and they’re like, Oh, yeah, praise, okay. Well, you know, it’s a little touchy feely for me. And and he said something to me, that that I’ll say to you that that really put me back on my heels. He said, If more people understood precision, praising fewer of their staff would quit. Mm hmm. And I just, man, I could dedicate some time to that. And so we put together you know, a weight of praise, scale and innovation. phrasing I’m really nerdy stuff like a praise aiming matrix and what are you trying to accomplish and how do you lean into that and and so it’s been a really that that one right there I think could be a game changer to that one alone. But take some of these type A leaders and help their team to feel cared for by them.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

The next one’s metaphor cementing. metaphor cementing is using concrete illustrations or metaphors just strengthen teachable points of view. You know, like when you think of speakers and how you speak at conferences, and you know, when you when you think of speakers or, or writers, when someone writes a song there is almost always I can’t even think I don’t even know if I want to use the word almost there’s always an anchoring metaphor. Yeah, that is painting a picture people think in pictures, not in words. And so when we when we can paint a picture of what we’re trying to accomplish, it will actually inspire in a brand new way we speak of Martin Luther King’s I Have a Dream speech today. Our our kids are learning it in elementary school, and they’re memorizing it and And and and he could have just said, this is wrong, things need to get better. And we would have moved forward and he would have been right. But because of the imagery he uses and the typography that he talks about in that the dream itself that he speaks of the bad check that’s been written that we’re still, in some ways living out today that all the things that are going on within within the African American culture of that we learn it because it sticks with us that is cemented in our minds because of all of the metaphor that he uses throughout that what if as leaders, what if you went into your next meeting with your staff, with a with an anchoring metaphor to help them move forward, they help them all get on the same page and understand what you’re trying to accomplish as an organization as a group of people.

The next one is lobbing forward. So loving forward is creatively challenging your team to look beyond the day to day grind of their jobs and into the future. There is there’s an epidemic within our teams. Have we are moving so fast that we have forgotten how to dream. We have so many things on our to do list that we’re just trying to get things checked off the list so we can move forward. And we’ve forgotten what it looks like to look into the future. I think that our job as leader as coach is to is to stretch the minds of our teams and give them the ability to dream again. And so that that forces us to slow down it forces us to understand them and what would motivate them. There’s a there’s a quote that says a man’s mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions. That’s our job as leaders to stretch the art is to stretch our team’s minds. And so again, that’s the in the coaching world you know, that’s a little bit like the explode the dynamite moment, right? That’s the, you know, we ask the questions, we say the things but every once in a while, there’s this direct thing that we’re going to walk into somebody and say, what would it look like if you were and then we explode dynamite you know, and kind of blow their mind a little bit.

The last one we caught going north. So going north is using indirect influence to redirect a person’s thinking or perspective. And again, that idea, man is we all know what it’s like to have an unmotivated team member or or worse to have kind of a, you know, a team member that’s pushing against. And every time we need to have that, that difficult conversation, you know, we we think because we don’t have enough time, we don’t slow down enough. We’re just gonna go straight at the problem right and, and, and, and sometimes that will work. But if you’ve if you’ve done it, you know, a lot of times when you run straight out of problem that you run into a brick wall, right? Like it’s, you know, Hey, will you come in my AC wave coming my office let me let me talk to you about something you’re gonna come in arms folded, you know, you know you’re in trouble, right? Because I only call people in my office when I need to talk about things. You know, we we do that and we naturally put up these walls.

Our job as the leader is to get around the wall. Our job as coaches is to get someone to lower their defenses. And so and so we’ve come up with five, you know, these five fundamentals of going north. And so how do you how do you surprise them with a gift? How do you change the setting to help them, you know, move things forward. And it’s all these different, you know, ideas as to how to do that well, and instead of going straight at it, you get you get around it so you can actually accomplish the thing you’re trying to accomplish. I just think these five and I’m sure there are others, and I’m sure down the line, we’ll have so many more. But we’ve found that if you can, if you can wrap your mind around these five competencies, though, that just kind of, you know, Blitz through that that you will actually create environments that your team can love their work. You will create environments where your team or your best people couldn’t imagine leaving. That revolving door could stop because they realize that they are known they are seen they are cared for, and they’re not just a cog in the machine. And that, to me is what would change the culture of so many of our organizations, there are amazing ideas out there amazing companies. And yet they struggled to keep their best people, they struggled to attract the best people. And and I think that this is going to be a secret sauce for some of those organizations to really unlock that.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah, I mean, there’s so much in this. And I think, I think it’s very clear these five competencies, and in some ways, it’s a reframing of some things that we may have heard about, learned about in the past, but the power of story, the power of communication, the power of being able to, you know, be empathetic, all of those different things. And I love that idea of going from a boss to a coach. And I love that idea about creating an environment that people don’t want to leave. I mean, there’s the stat that 51% of all employees in the US are actually looking for another job. I love that you talk about how do you engage People because again, the same Gallup stats say that only 35% of employees are engaged. And that remaining 65% 20% of those are actually toxic people that are actually working against that if you were to lose those people in the company, by default, the culture would automatically be healthier. And so all of these different things I think, are so important when we’re talking about how do you take a posture of being a leader coach, a player coach, he almost in a sense, right, you’re you’re in it as well, but you’re also acting as a coach. Those are some really powerful things. I think. I love the way you you began and end the book in terms of chapters, you began by saying, We need a cure for the common leader, which is I love that that idea. And also, you end with a very familiar term these days. The new normal what’s the new normal?

David A. Miller 

Yeah, I mean, that to me, I think that the new normal is To be a leader who actually is curious about their team. Yeah, I think the new normal is going to be a leader who is not stuck in what has worked, but is constantly looking for what will work. I think that the new normal is a leader whose staff feels known and seen by them. And man, we talked about generational stuff like a millennial on your team, if they flick they’re nothing more than a cog in the machine. They are not long for your space. And and if you we have you have someone on your team right now, who is talented, that would bet that it has the ability to take your team to the next level. And and they’re on the fence if they’re going to be on your team in the next month. Yeah, and if you don’t know that, and if you’re not on the lookout for that you are going to be blindsided by it and shocked and the amount of times I talked to leaders and they’re like I had no idea that this person was dissatisfied. One I don’t think that that’s that person’s fault. I think As a leader, that’s your fault.

Steve Chaparro 

Yeah.

David A. Miller 

And so and so what are we going to do to shift that culture and move it forward? In the middle of COVID? Once it’s overhead, because here’s the deal you guys, when this when it’s when it’s quote, unquote, over and we re enter, it’s not gonna look the same, right? It’s not gonna look like it did, right? There are gonna be things that come out of this season, that are going to become new normal, it will become new normal to have a mask in your car. So that you are you know, if you find yourself in a position and you and you need to put that on, it’s going to become new normal to have sanitizers around every corner, it’s going to become new normal, there’s technologies that are being built right now with UV rays that are going to disinfect, you know, aspects of your life on a regular basis. And right now, that sounds like science fiction to me. Yeah. And yet it is it is under development and something whether it’s that or something else, it’s going to happen that in time we were going to be like, Oh my gosh, like I couldn’t imagine life without this. And it came because Because of this major disruption that no one saw coming there, it will not be what it was we can learn from what it was, it will not be what it was, once we get back to it.

Steve Chaparro 

So much of a metaphor, right about this new normal, it’s when we go back at the workplace won’t be the same. You know, you talked about disinfecting, wearing masks, all these different things. And sometimes this might be a big sign that the, the new normal for us in our cultures might be that we have to do some disinfecting of our culture as well and raise our immunity system a little bit.  

Well, folks, we’ve been talking to David Miller, my good friend, he is the Vice President of Coaching that Slingshot Group and we’ve been talking about his new book that he has co-authored with Stan Endicott called Improv Leadership. David, if people want to learn more about you and your work, where can they go?

David A. Miller 

Yeah, so so slingshotgroup.org is where a lot of our stuff is the book is going to be available. You know, everyone books are sold. But if you want to get some information, we got some podcast conversations around it over at improv leadership book.com. And you know what? I won’t even boy, the name David Miller. I mean, if you try to find me on social media, it’s tough. So I you know, I try to go but David A Miller, whatever, but good luck, you know, so. Well, hopefully I’ll find you.

Steve Chaparro 

Alright. Thanks, David. Appreciate your time. This has been an awesome conversation and I know, leaders around the world will find great value in what we talked about.

David A. Miller 

I appreciate it, man. 

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